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@intransitivelie both sides of the same coin they each need an external enemy to ignore the fact that they are half of the main problem which is the USA governance

One can't function without the other You need to have an enemy and bad people in order to play this sort of adult preschool game

That's why otherwise smart people wailing about Russia ends up being a fascist red flag for me

@voxofgod
I'm not going to say that both sides are equally the problem. There are some people who are wailing about "the Russians" who genuinely desire a righteous war against the evil they see Russia as representing, and some who want any kind of war because it gives their lives meaning. But there are a lot of people who are buying into "the Russians" as a monstrous "other" because it's what humans do when confronted with a problem. A lot of American liberals would rather believe that "the Russians" are responsible for Trump than realize that the people responsible for Trump are their neighbors and friends. It's easier to believe in "low-information voters" who were swayed by Russian propaganda than it is to confront the fact that roughly a third of the country are fascists (and yes, I know the argument could be made that it's more than that, or that the entire country is fascist regardless of who's in charge, but I'm talking about from the perspective of liberals who don't think of themselves as fascists).

It's the same instinct that leads people to believe that all Trump voters are ignorant rednecks when in fact most of them were perfectly aware of what they were doing, even if they might now be surprised that the face-eating leopard is eating their faces too. We like to believe that people won't knowingly vote against their own self-interest for a chance to hurt people lower in the social hierarchy than they are. And couple that with the fact that a lot of comfortable liberals are enamored of bipartisanship, and they've got to come up with an excuse, so they landed on Russia.

I'm not saying Russia isn't bad, nor am I saying that Russia isn't actively conspiring with the Republicans to wreck the country. That makes perfect sense. What I'm saying is that Russia would conspire with the Democrats to wreck the country if the Russian government thought it would work, or they might act against both sides just to stir the pot, and in any case, they're not an explanation for what's happening, they're just a factor. The Democrats are losing fair and square, or as fairly and squarely as you can lose when the political system has been rigged against you for 50 years because you refused to do anything to help yourselves (you here being the Democrats, in case my pronoun antecedents aren't clear).

I do not desire war with anyone, and really don't desire war against the Russians, and I am terrified that we will somehow manage to survive the current crisis only to plunge into another cold or even hot war (well, we're already fairly involved in several cold wars, but we could make it much worse) with Russia because the liberals have decided that Russia is the Big Bad in this situation. And they'll let the fash in this country off the hook in order to pursue this war, which will in turn secure fascist victory again. It's a problem.

@intransitivelie The reason I think it's a particular problem as well is because liberals get people on their bandwagon that otherwise could do useful things

Whether or not it's intentional is another story and You're right we are dealing with percentages of a demo

But like you say the distraction, for whatever reason is going to distract us into a 'fourth reich'

@voxofgod
Absolutely. I don't think Russia is entirely a distraction, but it serves as one if one concentrates all one's energy on that problem to the exclusion of all others. I honestly don't care why; what matters is that we need to concentrate our attention on multiple things, which is difficult, unfortunately.

@deirdrebeth
I'm in no way arguing that Russia isn't a factor or isn't currently run by a fascist. I just don't think one can excuse Republican voters by way of Russia. Trump won fair and square (well, without substantial foreign interference; the election was ratfucked to hell and back by the Republicans, as they have done for the past 50 years). That's not down to Russian misinfo or Ukraine. A majority of the people who voted went for Trump, and they didn't do so because they were misinformed.

As for Trump being beholden to Russia... Maybe? But it doesn't matter very much? Nothing that he's doing is at odds with his personal or party aims, and if he's beholden to Russia, it's being expressed in the sort of relationship that a fascist might have with an allied fascist government. Putin is pleased as punch that Trump was elected, but I suspect he'd be pleased as punch for the country to be distracted and divided regardless.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is not that Russia is the good guy, or that Russia didn't do what it could to help Trump. I'm saying that there are far too many people concentrating solely on Russia and ignoring that the call is coming from inside the house, as it were. Multiple things can be true and I worry that blaming Russia exclusively is letting a lot of American fascists off the hook. It's also, I'm afraid, letting the Democrats off the hook for failing to act to prevent fascism in this country.

I support Ukraine. I don't think it should be invaded. I support the opposition to fascism in Russia. Quite honestly, I have to be very careful myself because I love Russia and I hate what Putin and his thugs have turned it into (not that others before him aren't to blame as well). So it's very tempting to go whole hog and back Ukraine to the hilt and blame Russia for everything. But that's not the situation on the ground. The reality is that Ukraine is a proxy war and Russia isn't responsible for American fascism any more than America is responsible for Russian fascism, which is to say, a certain amount but not as much as some people would like to believe.

I don't believe there's a Big Bad either. I never said there was. I just saw a political cartoon which suggested that Russia was the final domino to be knocked over by the anti-fascist push in the US, placed as the biggest domino and after defeating Trump, and that's not true or useful to believe. I'm not saying you believe that. If you don't, I wasn't talking about you.